SMACK/ URL PRESENTS RealDeal VS B-Magic

[DeeezNuuuts83]

Great post imo. I'd disagree with the assertion of Verb's diminishing quality simply because of his performance against Hitman ("that's how you talk to your son" is one of the best schemes of the year). He dropped the ball vs. X, but if both come at their peak, Rex/Verb will be nothing short of a classic.

I agree that Verb did well against Hitman, but I didn't think the performance was all that. I've watched it more than just once, but it never had a replay value to me. He had a good scheme, but it was nothing special, and I think that his "The fact still remains..." scheme against Math was better. I'm not saying that he doesn't have anything left in the tank, but after he battled Hollow and Math, I was never impressed by him.

But if they both bring their A-game, T-Rex would still 3-0 him. Verb was definitely swinging hard against Math, but I just don't see him beating Rex.

[The Mast]

Nothing is preventing non-black battle rappers from going there other than themselves, but the URL crowd is one of the most difficult to win over, so not everyone actually tries it out, though of course everyone and their mom wants to battle someone who is from URL. I've been watching rap battles since the late '90s when I was in my teens, and what was unique about leagues like GT and KOTD was that the crowds were far more forgiving to rappers not bringing their A-game.

What happens on Smack/URL when you forget your lyrics or stumble a word? You will get booed, and you probably won't get a chance to finish unless you find a way to quiet them down or if they just really like you, like Calicoe (who stumbled in a round against both Shotgun Suge and K-Shine). What happens on Smack/URL if your rhymes get boring? The crowd will lose interest and start talking amongst themselves, over the person onstage. The same thing happened with a lot of other past leagues like Fight Klub (where even Serius Jones got booed against Professor Green when his last round got boring) and even overseas leagues like Jumpoff (where Professor Green got shut down by the crowd when he stumbled a line against Jin), so it's not just an NYC thing. If that happens on GT or KOTD, of course the crowd will be disappointed, but unless you do something really cheesy (like Canibus pulling out a notebook), but you can at least keep going and finish your round.

Right, so...though everyone seems to think you just dropped a gem of a post, what exactly were you saying? You never said anything I didn't say.

I never disagreed with any of this. I'm not entirely sure what prompted such a response, because we essentially agree on everything except one thing.

I disagree that nothing's stopping them. The fact is that either Smack hasn't reached out to many non-black rappers, or they're scared. Personally, I think it's chicken/egg. Does he not reach out because they're scared, or are they scared because they feel the lack of reaching out means he is too cautious about diverting from the fact that it's a mostly black, street league?

Besides that, what did you feel particular disagreement with? I'm still confused as to what warranted your post.

Too many MCs are oblivious to just how unwelcoming U.R.L. seemed until the Real Deal battle, and maybe even still.

I'm a fan of all leagues, but the problem with that perspective is that most critics of URL are focusing on the fact that they are talking about guns and automatically dismissing it as lacking creativity. Gun bars can get old (mostly because 90% of the rappers talking about them aren't half as G as they try to sound), but they do use more creativity than people give them credit for. My girlfriend likes GT/KOTD over URL because she thinks they're more creative while URL is old and only talks about guns, but it's not like GT/KOTD never gets repetitive either with subject matter. Fresco will always get gay jokes thrown at him. Soul Khan will always get Jewish jokes thrown at him. PH will always get old jokes thrown at him. Thesaurus will always get face jokes thrown at him. But people let it slide because people will find new angles to make those same jokes, but the same thing can apply to gun bars used in URL. So it's unreasonable to be hypocritical and talk about how all URL rappers use gun bars while applauding some new idiom about somebody's obvious physical imperfection.

Yeah, so...where did I say they are all gun bars, and none of them are creative? I don't care what the bars are about, just make them good. That is what I said. I never said they WEREN'T creative entirely. I just said they don't do anything for me. Most of them aren't creative, though. A lot of them just throw in a sports reference and liken it to something street. O-Red has BARS. Calicoe, when he tries, has bars. Math has bars. There are a few I really like.

My point was that there's more creative variation and an emphasis on condensed competitiveness in other leagues than in U.R.L.

These dudes ALL get paid and none of them have judged battles. It doesn't give me that same entertainment because I know I'm not gonna see a winner. I wouldn't watch boxing or hockey if every fight or game was promo. There are many legitimate reasons why people find U.R.L. to be corny and not worth their time.

Even so, none of what you said applies to me. So, again, I'm confused as to why you replied how you did. You're countering shit I never said and making points I didn't disagree with.

Math lost every single round against Calicoe. That wasn't even a close battle. I didn't sleep on any of Math's lines either, but a lot of his bars were boring as hell, but the only solid one was the "Call me Polo 'cause I'll put the riders on your shirt," while everything else either didn't make much sense ("I'll knock the 'U' out of 'you' like I turned to 'yo'") or was just completely weak ("I'll split your 'dome' for trying to 'do me'"), and his delivery was a B- at best that night. He's usually dope, as I definitely think he beat T-Rex, but he has his shortcomings too, like having re-used lines (like the "They found out that the chain was fake, so they fucked you up some more" line that he used against both Dose and T-Rex) and having stumbled in lines here and there (first round against Iron Solomon, second round against T-Rex) to completely blanking against Calicoe in the third round.

I don't agree with you.

If you don't rate his watch scheme or his Aquemini line, then you either have simply differing taste to me or you were sleeping. The crowd were out of line and people take that for Math being wack. It wasn't. They were clearly biased.

I agree that Real Deal would beat Aye Verb, but Verb has fallen off. I personally think his best battles were against Hollow and also against Math, but other than that, his lines just don't hit like they used to. The URL crowd (particularly in NYC) is already getting tired of him. I do think that they did him wrong at Summer Madness last year when he battled Charlie Clips, but the outcome would've been the same anywhere... he got beat, no question. But he tries to make big references to get crowd reaction that end up being wrong, like against Clips when he was talking about "Charlie" in reference to A Christmas Story (but the kid's name in the movie wasn't Charlie, it was Ralphie) or when he battled O-Red and had some Star Wars reference but was holding up the Star Trek hand sign. He already lost to X-Factor (supposedly 3-0), and T-Rex will body him, if he spits like he has in either of his last two battles, particularly his first round against Arsonal.

Again, you're rambling. You've seemingly spellbound a few posters here, but you're saying a lot of nothing.

What's your point? My point was that in other leagues, crowds aren't as easily impressed. Granted, U.R.L. crowds are harsh, but not in criticism. They give the loudest reactions for bars that would seem played out in any other league. They are VERY easily impressed. Real Deal bodied B-Magic and got STUPID reactions for shit that he is way better than. That's my point. Bar-for-Bar, other leagues' best MCs are MUCH better because they don't have to rely on seeming street. They can make really obscure or intellectual references and the crowd get it.

A league like URL places a lot of emphasis on the overall performance and delivery, since the crowd reacts to that. But I am more entertained by URL battles than a lot of battles from other leagues, which can be more hit-or-miss, again since the crowd is more forgiving in those leagues. At URL, sometimes you have to be just as mindful of the crowd as much as your own opponent.

Yeah, ok. So, let's work out what the whole point to your post was, because you're not being clear.

What exactly were you attempting to counter of mine? You seem to have imagined that I hold stances or have said things that I don't or haven't.

[DeeezNuuuts83]

Right, so...though everyone seems to think you just dropped a gem of a post, what exactly were you saying? You never said anything I didn't say.

What's with the disapproval of other people liking my post? Anyway...

I never disagreed with any of this. I'm not entirely sure what prompted such a response, because we essentially agree on everything except one thing.

I disagree that nothing's stopping them. The fact is that either Smack hasn't reached out to many non-black rappers, or they're scared. Personally, I think it's chicken/egg. Does he not reach out because they're scared, or are they scared because they feel the lack of reaching out means he is too cautious about diverting from the fact that it's a mostly black, street league?

Why does Smack have to reach out to people? There are already plenty of quality emcees within URL who could still battle each other, not to mention the up-and-coming emcees from their own Proving Grounds who they are overseeing as well. That's a tall enough order as it is, so for him (and Norbes, etc.) to scout from outside of that group is certain a big task.

But again, that doesn't mean that they would deny people who aren't from Smack/URL/PG. If it's someone who has a lot of buzz and either reaches out to Smack themselves or if there is someone that A LOT of Smack's main fanbase wants to see on URL, then that will be the catalyst for communication, whether they're black, white, Asian, etc. It's not their fault if the emcee is scared, they're not going to play daddy and pep-talk someone who themselves isn't ready for URL into thinking that they are.

Also, I'm sure that Smack wants to have good relationships with people who run other leagues. If he is the first person to reach out to someone else from another league, it might look like he's trying to steal them from the other league, so it's probably a good business move for PR purposes to mind his business but to consider emcees who approach him. For example, Poison Pen (and pretty much everyone from GTEC) approached Smack and merged with URL since Grind Time had fallen apart, which makes sense. But if Smack had convinced Poison Pen and his crew to come over before that happened, it would've looked like Smack was trying to monopolize the battle scene, one region at a time, even if Grind Time was really falling apart.

Besides that, what did you feel particular disagreement with? I'm still confused as to what warranted your post.

Maybe because I had an opinion that I felt like expressing? It is an internet forum for discussion, after all... other people seemed to have understood my post. I know I quoted you before some of my responses, but not everything I said was a direct rebuttal to something that you said, though it may have appeared that way, wich wasn't necessarily my intention.

Too many MCs are oblivious to just how unwelcoming U.R.L. seemed until the Real Deal battle, and maybe even still.

But how it SEEMED is just how they are perceived, which isn't Smack's fault. It's difficult to control how other people view you. I remember years ago when I was in college, in a discussion during one of my social science classes, one girl was talking about how all of the fraternities and sororities usually sat in the outside tables near where all of the restaurants were at the student center and how she was "terrified" of going near there, when in fact she was just intimidated due to the social setting and her lack of confidence, not because anyone was telling her that she couldn't go there. She just never tried and assumed that she wasn't welcome. Similarly, it's not Smack's fault if some other emcees think that URL isn't welcoming others.

But a lot happened long before the Real Deal battle. Don't forget that YEARS ago (maybe 2005), Jin battled Verse on Smack... and he's not black and had never been on Smack before, only on 106 and Park and other leagues (Jumpoff, Fight Klub, etc.). And a few years ago (maybe 2009 or 2010), Prophit battled Millenium Ls (in which he infamously said "nigga" in his last round), and Prophit is white and came from Grind Time. I highly doubt that Smack reached out to him, as he wasn't really a hot commodity within Grind Time anyway (having lost to a few people like DNA and Rone), but I bet that he had the balls to hit up Smack and ask for a spot on one of their cards. Soul Khan, one of the nerdiest guys to have ever been on URL, battled twice and beat both of his opponents too while having the crowd on his side. So it's not a "black" thing, and it's not a "league" thing either, as very few of the big emcees on URL now actually started there.

Yeah, so...where did I say they are all gun bars, and none of them are creative? I don't care what the bars are about, just make them good. That is what I said. I never said they WEREN'T creative entirely. I just said they don't do anything for me. Most of them aren't creative, though. A lot of them just throw in a sports reference and liken it to something street. O-Red has BARS. Calicoe, when he tries, has bars. Math has bars. There are a few I really like.

I know that it was your post that I had quoted, but I didn't say that YOU said all that they had were gun bars or that they lacked creativity. If you re-read what I said, I clearly stated that I was referring to MOST CRITICS OF URL. I gave an example of my girlfriend being one of them, so that paragraph clearly wasn't about you, just most (not all) people who dislike URL more than they like it.

My point was that there's more creative variation and an emphasis on condensed competitiveness in other leagues than in U.R.L.

I agree, and that's what makes multiple leagues great. Sometimes I'm in the mood for listening to street shit, and sometimes I want to be humored. I remember my neighbors actually coming over to see what the fuss was about because they heard me laughing very loudly the first time when I watched Soul Khan vs. Fresco. I'm not saying that they're better than anyone else, but a lot of URL rappers have really stepped up their lyrical game too, as there was a point where I'd say that Grind Time was on top not just in terms of being "the" league at the time but also in terms of their rappers being the most lyrically [insert adjective here] at the time. A lot of them have grown, given the shift in battle rap, and have also brought more complexity into their rhymes that may not have been common in a league like Smack/URL a few years ago. Again, I'm not saying that they're the best, I'm just saying that they have also been improving and trying other concepts.

These dudes ALL get paid and none of them have judged battles. It doesn't give me that same entertainment because I know I'm not gonna see a winner. I wouldn't watch boxing or hockey if every fight or game was promo. There are many legitimate reasons why people find U.R.L. to be corny and not worth their time.

But the difference is because judging can be flawed, especially when the so-called "judges" aren't really "trained" to judge battles. In most cases, they're no different than any other fan making a YouTube comment saying who they thought won. And even "professional" judges can make mistakes or just not get the picture. Just look at the outcome of Pacquiao-Bradley, if you're into boxing. Sure, it's mostly subjective (in terms of assigning points since it's their opinion of who won the round), but there's really no argument for why the outcome was the way it was. And they even make objective errors too, like how one judge incorrectly scored the first round of Pacquiao-Marquez I as 10-7 instead of 10-6 when there's no debate about Pacquiao having knocked him down three times, which warrants a 10-6.

But back to battle rap, judges in this arena have been flawed MANY times. Look at Head Ice vs. Cortez (Lion's Den), where everyone thought that the hip-hop legends judging the battle slept on Cortez. Or look at Cortez vs. Soul Khan (Grind Time), where Soul Khan should've won in three but somehow lost in overtime, even though he still had a better round. Or look at Dirtbag Dan vs. Anygma (Fliptop), where Anygma was dope (especially considering English probably wasn't his first language) but didn't really beat DBD, while the all-Filipino panel of judges there in the Philippines pretty much gave a (biased) UD win to Anygma... it can be argued that he may have won, but for every judge to have given the win to Anygma is very questionable.

Also, just ask yourself, how many battles have you watched where it was debatable and had to watch it a second time? Or how many battles have you watched and thought one guy won, but later thought the other guy won? Or how many times did you watch a battle and later catch lines that you didn't originally catch? Again, that's the problem with judged rap battles based on the decisions of a handful of people who are forced to make their decision on the spot. That's what now separates it from other things that are judged, especially with how much more complicated battle rap is now compared to ten years ago when guys were just making fun of their opponent's clothes. Boxing can certainly be re-watched and yield different opinions of the same fight, but it's only because opinions can change, not necessarily because they "missed" something, which can happen more easily in battle rap. Also, if you like bars over performance, you may be inclined to put more value in bars than performance, whereas if you were a Cotto fan and didn't like the defensive style of Mayweather, your preference can't dismiss the fact that Cotto got outboxed during much of their fight.

Even so, none of what you said applies to me. So, again, I'm confused as to why you replied how you did. You're countering shit I never said and making points I didn't disagree with.

Again, I've mentioned before that not everything I said was a counter for something that you said, or even about you, though I realize that it was you who I had quoted, but I probably had other people's posts in mind as well.

I don't agree with you.

If you don't rate his watch scheme or his Aquemini line, then you either have simply differing taste to me or you were sleeping. The crowd were out of line and people take that for Math being wack. It wasn't. They were clearly biased.

I didn't point it out because I don't have to list every single line that Math said to show you that I was listening. I got the line, and it was creative but nothing that is going to win a battle. Math himself admitted that his performance was sub-par that day, I think it was during a URL Battle Rap Arena call-in when Loaded Lux was being interviewed. The crowd gave Math a chance. They certainly didn't sleep on his Polo line (which I pointed out) and definitely reacted to it, but again, a lot of his stuff was mediocre. Some of Calicoe's lines were mediocre too, but overall, he had a lot more lines that are going to get a reaction, so the boring lines ("For his old ass to beat me, that shit got to be a miracle") get forgotten pretty easily. A lot of the boo's for Math started when he was stumbling, like when he stuttered when saying "Let's clap to welcome Aye Verb back" or when he flat out forgot his lyrics at the end of his third round, which was actually shaping up to be a pretty good one, especially since the crowd was humored by the Miss Hustle reference. Also, he just didn't have the same energy that he had in prior battles, like when he went at T-Rex.

Still, I really wouldn't say that the crowd was originally biased against Math going into the battle, especially since Calicoe didn't really establish himself until that battle as a top-tier rapper. A LOT of people were looking forward to Math coming back to battle. Also, I don't know if you follow URL on their website, but A LOT of people who posted on their website were saying that it was too early for Calicoe to go against Math while thinking that he didn't stand a chance. I think even Loaded Lux thought that Calicoe was going to lose. But on the URL website, people were posting on it, and damn near everyone who was at the battle but on their phones was highlighting Calicoe's lyrics. I remember one guy mentioning the "I'm in the same spot where Dose was at" line and also the "We 'Uncle Phil' niggas' crews" line online. Maybe it wasn't the most lyrical stuff, but they were solid lines nonetheless.

Again, you're rambling. You've seemingly spellbound a few posters here, but you're saying a lot of nothing.

Why, does it bother you if other people agreed with and/or appreciated my opinions? It sounds like it, since you pointed that out twice.

What's your point? My point was that in other leagues, crowds aren't as easily impressed. Granted, U.R.L. crowds are harsh, but not in criticism. They give the loudest reactions for bars that would seem played out in any other league. They are VERY easily impressed. Real Deal bodied B-Magic and got STUPID reactions for shit that he is way better than. That's my point. Bar-for-Bar, other leagues' best MCs are MUCH better because they don't have to rely on seeming street. They can make really obscure or intellectual references and the crowd get it.

Well, it's a different crowd altogether that might favor different things. But if they're so easily impressed, then why do so many people get booed onstage? It certainly isn't because the rapper wasn't "seeming street" enough. Just look at Hollow, some of his lines that received the most reaction on URL aren't even "street" bars. And even in his street bars, it's what else he said ("Bang! Bang! Bang! Craig's pops," "I'll put blood on the wall and the cabinets, homie/ It'll look like three bad ass kids was eating ravioli," etc.). Similarly, Hollow has obscure references too... just look at the beginning of his second round against Goodz ("I'm coming with fire off the top -- a Mike Jacks' Pepsi commercial" referring to when Michael Jackson's hair was set on fire when filming a commercial decades ago, or "They caught him on the rebound and slammed his ass without looking, like Dee Brown" referring to when Dee Brown won the Slam Dunk contest in the early '90s), the crowd liked those. Maybe they weren't super-complicated, but they were still obscure things that weren't current pop references, but the crowd got them. But they were obscure references that the Smack/URL crowd would probably remember.

Yeah, ok. So, let's work out what the whole point to your post was, because you're not being clear.

What exactly were you attempting to counter of mine? You seem to have imagined that I hold stances or have said things that I don't or haven't.

I don't see how you can't understand that I had opinions of things that you were talking about but wasn't necessarily disagreeing with you in each post just because I quoted you. Or are we not allowed to post opinions on forums anymore?

[MultiVerse]

^Co-sign all of that.

[lakim shabazz]

wow i thought i was rap battle nerd HAHAHAHAHAHA all love love when battles create discussions.

[illipsis]

I agree that Verb did well against Hitman, but I didn't think the performance was all that. I've watched it more than just once, but it never had a replay value to me. He had a good scheme, but it was nothing special, and I think that his "The fact still remains..." scheme against Math was better. I'm not saying that he doesn't have anything left in the tank, but after he battled Hollow and Math, I was never impressed by him.

But if they both bring their A-game, T-Rex would still 3-0 him. Verb was definitely swinging hard against Math, but I just don't see him beating Rex.

I wouldn't be shocked if Rex won, but agree to disagree...it'll be a close one. The Hitman battle has definitely been overhyped by this point, but it was a very impressive performance. As a more recent fan of battle rap that's actually the match I'm looking forward to most instead of the return of the legends haha.

[DeeezNuuuts83]

wow i thought i was rap battle nerd HAHAHAHAHAHA all love love when battles create discussions.

It's a great discussion topic... so many different opinions, so many different rap styles, so many different strengths and weakenesses. Just look at Arsonal vs. Conceited, even the rappers themselves go back-and-forth about whether or not they think they won.

I wouldn't be shocked if Rex won, but agree to disagree...it'll be a close one.

Definitely. I wasn't trying to say that Aye Verb would get bodied, I just think that Rex can get a 3-0 win. But again, a 3-0 win doesn't mean that he killed the other guy. It could be really close each round, with Rex edging it each time. Ironically, on the URL website, they posted a URL Battle Rap Arena interview where at the beginning, Jesse Rican said that he thought Rex would win 3-0 against Aye Verb while acknowledging that it would be close, contrasting to people assuming that Jesse meant that Rex would straight up slaughter Verb. But that interview got ugly once Aye Verb called in, who was the guest of that episode. Obviously he disagreed but he was even telling Jesse to put up $1,000 against him. He straight up punked Jesse the whole time, it was actually kind of sad and kind of unnecessary, since Verb was talking about how Jesse bet a large sum of money on Cotto against Mayweather (and obviously lost) and some other stuff. I understand Verb would want to stand his ground and not just brush off someone thinking that he'd lose like that, but he just kept going at him.

As a more recent fan of battle rap that's actually the match I'm looking forward to most instead of the return of the legends haha.

No doubt. DNA vs. E Ness is probably going to be boring. DNA is good (and his two recent KOTD battles were actually really, really good) but there's still something that he lacks that the other heavy hitters have, and I can't quite put my finger on it. E Ness just really isn't all that great at being a battle rapper to the point where it just seemed like he was rapping random lyrics (and not necessarily something meant for a battle) when he went at it with Iron Solomon on Grind Time. DNA will likely 3-0 him.

I think Calicoe vs. Loaded Lux is going to be the most interesting battle, since they're two highly ranked emcees from two different eras with followings who swear that their rapper is going to body the other guy. I can't call it, but Calicoe is on fire right now, and against O-Red showed that he can freestyle an entire round if he wanted to while using personals, being funny and still saying real shit... even if you didn't know where O-Red lived, that "Tomorrow, there'll be a hundred Detroit niggas on the corner of 18th and Fabian" line deserved props and was the perfect line to say while in Jersey, as a lot of them might know where O-Red lives or at least know where those two streets are. But then again, Lux is no slouch either. He can freestyle too (don't forget he had a run on 106 and Park and straight up killed Nuborn on one episode) and is no stranger to these kinds of crowds. Calicoe did have a point when he made a remark about Lux never having battled in a room with so many people (contrasting to the "room with the records on the wall" where his other battles happened), but it's not like Lux isn't aware of that.

Serius Jones vs. Charlie Clips has the potential of being the best battle of the night. I say that because while Lux will also be returning from an absence from battle rap, Serius Jones was someone who wasn't always making blogs or appearing onstage at battles (like Mook and Lux), so his return came as a surprise, whereas people knew that Mook and Lux would either come back or be pressured into coming back. He's probably one of the better freestylers out of everyone performing, since a lot of his earliest big battles relied on it, compared to a lot of today's battles just being 95% pre-written with one or two adlibbed freestyle lines in it, so that will help. Clips is dope and definitely beat both Verb and X-Factor (though Big T is debatable), but I'm rarely blown away by his lines, but I REALLY liked the PS3 controller lines against X and the cell phone company lines against T. But while Clips is part of the current generation, he's not as young as them, so I don't consider it as much of a young vs. old/new vs. old as Cal/Lux. I want Serius to win.

Solomon vs. Mook is going to be the most talked-about one, given how long it is (five rounds!) and how long they've both been out of Smack/URL. Mook will probably appeal more to the crowd (plus he will have the usual Dot Mob cheerleaders hyping him up) but I don't think he's as good as people make him out to be. I don't doubt that Solomon already has had stuff ready for years, considering the shit he's said... in an interview back in 2009 or 2010, they asked who he'd want to battle, and he said he'd battle Mook "as soon as he pulls his skirt down" (which he said jokingly), plus his last line against E Ness was "You dead last/ After Jae Mills and Mook's bitch ass" or something like that.

[The Mast]

Damn. Multiverse RIDING.

What's with the disapproval of other people liking my post? Anyway...


Why does Smack have to reach out to people? There are already plenty of quality emcees within URL who could still battle each other, not to mention the up-and-coming emcees from their own Proving Grounds who they are overseeing as well. That's a tall enough order as it is, so for him (and Norbes, etc.) to scout from outside of that group is certain a big task.

But again, that doesn't mean that they would deny people who aren't from Smack/URL/PG. If it's someone who has a lot of buzz and either reaches out to Smack themselves or if there is someone that A LOT of Smack's main fanbase wants to see on URL, then that will be the catalyst for communication, whether they're black, white, Asian, etc. It's not their fault if the emcee is scared, they're not going to play daddy and pep-talk someone who themselves isn't ready for URL into thinking that they are.

Also, I'm sure that Smack wants to have good relationships with people who run other leagues. If he is the first person to reach out to someone else from another league, it might look like he's trying to steal them from the other league, so it's probably a good business move for PR purposes to mind his business but to consider emcees who approach him. For example, Poison Pen (and pretty much everyone from GTEC) approached Smack and merged with URL since Grind Time had fallen apart, which makes sense. But if Smack had convinced Poison Pen and his crew to come over before that happened, it would've looked like Smack was trying to monopolize the battle scene, one region at a time, even if Grind Time was really falling apart.

Do you HONESTLY believe, in your heart of all hearts, that U.R.L. does NOT come off as a partisan league which requires a clear style and has a clear demographic? You say it's the MCs fault, I say it's both.

Maybe because I had an opinion that I felt like expressing? It is an internet forum for discussion, after all... other people seemed to have understood my post. I know I quoted you before some of my responses, but not everything I said was a direct rebuttal to something that you said, though it may have appeared that way, wich wasn't necessarily my intention

Then don't directly select and quote my posts. I didn't say half the shit you countered.

But how it SEEMED is just how they are perceived, which isn't Smack's fault. It's difficult to control how other people view you. I remember years ago when I was in college, in a discussion during one of my social science classes, one girl was talking about how all of the fraternities and sororities usually sat in the outside tables near where all of the restaurants were at the student center and how she was "terrified" of going near there, when in fact she was just intimidated due to the social setting and her lack of confidence, not because anyone was telling her that she couldn't go there. She just never tried and assumed that she wasn't welcome. Similarly, it's not Smack's fault if some other emcees think that URL isn't welcoming others.

But a lot happened long before the Real Deal battle. Don't forget that YEARS ago (maybe 2005), Jin battled Verse on Smack... and he's not black and had never been on Smack before, only on 106 and Park and other leagues (Jumpoff, Fight Klub, etc.). And a few years ago (maybe 2009 or 2010), Prophit battled Millenium Ls (in which he infamously said "nigga" in his last round), and Prophit is white and came from Grind Time. I highly doubt that Smack reached out to him, as he wasn't really a hot commodity within Grind Time anyway (having lost to a few people like DNA and Rone), but I bet that he had the balls to hit up Smack and ask for a spot on one of their cards. Soul Khan, one of the nerdiest guys to have ever been on URL, battled twice and beat both of his opponents too while having the crowd on his side. So it's not a "black" thing, and it's not a "league" thing either, as very few of the big emcees on URL now actually started there.

His slogan is "Real Nigga Time", son. It's a mostly black league and the THIRD WHITE GUY EVER had JUST appeared on there. You're honestly telling me this isn't a decidedly "street" league? You ever seen Trick Trick at a King of the Dot event? Why do you think that league gets all the views? Why has Big T. Vs Clips got 50k views more than D.N.A. Vs Eurgh?

To deny there's a clear reason is obliviousness.

His slogan is "Real Nigga Time", son. It's a mostly black league and the THIRD WHITE GUY EVER had JUST appeared on there. You're honestly telling me this isn't a decidedly "street" league? You ever seen Trick Trick at a King of the Dot event? Why do you think that league gets all the views? Why has Big T. Vs Clips got 50k views more than D.N.A. Vs Eurgh?

To deny there's a clear reason is obliviousness.

But the difference is because judging can be flawed, especially when the so-called "judges" aren't really "trained" to judge battles. In most cases, they're no different than any other fan making a YouTube comment saying who they thought won. And even "professional" judges can make mistakes or just not get the picture. Just look at the outcome of Pacquiao-Bradley, if you're into boxing. Sure, it's mostly subjective (in terms of assigning points since it's their opinion of who won the round), but there's really no argument for why the outcome was the way it was. And they even make objective errors too, like how one judge incorrectly scored the first round of Pacquiao-Marquez I as 10-7 instead of 10-6 when there's no debate about Pacquiao having knocked him down three times, which warrants a 10-6.

But back to battle rap, judges in this arena have been flawed MANY times. Look at Head Ice vs. Cortez (Lion's Den), where everyone thought that the hip-hop legends judging the battle slept on Cortez. Or look at Cortez vs. Soul Khan (Grind Time), where Soul Khan should've won in three but somehow lost in overtime, even though he still had a better round. Or look at Dirtbag Dan vs. Anygma (Fliptop), where Anygma was dope (especially considering English probably wasn't his first language) but didn't really beat DBD, while the all-Filipino panel of judges there in the Philippines pretty much gave a (biased) UD win to Anygma... it can be argued that he may have won, but for every judge to have given the win to Anygma is very questionable.

Also, just ask yourself, how many battles have you watched where it was debatable and had to watch it a second time? Or how many battles have you watched and thought one guy won, but later thought the other guy won? Or how many times did you watch a battle and later catch lines that you didn't originally catch? Again, that's the problem with judged rap battles based on the decisions of a handful of people who are forced to make their decision on the spot. That's what now separates it from other things that are judged, especially with how much more complicated battle rap is now compared to ten years ago when guys were just making fun of their opponent's clothes. Boxing can certainly be re-watched and yield different opinions of the same fight, but it's only because opinions can change, not necessarily because they "missed" something, which can happen more easily in battle rap. Also, if you like bars over performance, you may be inclined to put more value in bars than performance, whereas if you were a Cotto fan and didn't like the defensive style of Mayweather, your preference can't dismiss the fact that Cotto got outboxed during much of their fight.

This is under the assumption that because bad shit can happen, it's not worth it. No, I want winners. If you're not good enough to win, you should lose. I hate these U.R.L. guys going around claiming shit. Arsonal still claims he's undefeated. I've never seen him win either.

His slogan is "Real Nigga Time", son. It's a mostly black league and the THIRD WHITE GUY EVER had JUST appeared on there. You're honestly telling me this isn't a decidedly "street" league? You ever seen Trick Trick at a King of the Dot event? Why do you think that league gets all the views? Why has Big T. Vs Clips got 50k views more than D.N.A. Vs Eurgh?

To deny there's a clear reason is obliviousness.

I didn't point it out because I don't have to list every single line that Math said to show you that I was listening. I got the line, and it was creative but nothing that is going to win a battle. Math himself admitted that his performance was sub-par that day, I think it was during a URL Battle Rap Arena call-in when Loaded Lux was being interviewed. The crowd gave Math a chance. They certainly didn't sleep on his Polo line (which I pointed out) and definitely reacted to it, but again, a lot of his stuff was mediocre. Some of Calicoe's lines were mediocre too, but overall, he had a lot more lines that are going to get a reaction, so the boring lines ("For his old ass to beat me, that shit got to be a miracle") get forgotten pretty easily. A lot of the boo's for Math started when he was stumbling, like when he stuttered when saying "Let's clap to welcome Aye Verb back" or when he flat out forgot his lyrics at the end of his third round, which was actually shaping up to be a pretty good one, especially since the crowd was humored by the Miss Hustle reference. Also, he just didn't have the same energy that he had in prior battles, like when he went at T-Rex.

Still, I really wouldn't say that the crowd was originally biased against Math going into the battle, especially since Calicoe didn't really establish himself until that battle as a top-tier rapper. A LOT of people were looking forward to Math coming back to battle. Also, I don't know if you follow URL on their website, but A LOT of people who posted on their website were saying that it was too early for Calicoe to go against Math while thinking that he didn't stand a chance. I think even Loaded Lux thought that Calicoe was going to lose. But on the URL website, people were posting on it, and damn near everyone who was at the battle but on their phones was highlighting Calicoe's lyrics. I remember one guy mentioning the "I'm in the same spot where Dose was at" line and also the "We 'Uncle Phil' niggas' crews" line online. Maybe it wasn't the most lyrical stuff, but they were solid lines nonetheless.

Exactly. That is exactly it. So, his energy wasn't up. That wouldn't have changed by booing him. Worst crowds in ANY league. His bars would've been better heard and better understood had they given him a shot. I don't think they did. They're not respectful enough to the MCs. You paid money, let them do what you came to see.


His slogan is "Real Nigga Time", son. It's a mostly black league and the THIRD WHITE GUY EVER had JUST appeared on there. You're honestly telling me this isn't a decidedly "street" league? You ever seen Trick Trick at a King of the Dot event? Why do you think that league gets all the views? Why has Big T. Vs Clips got 50k views more than D.N.A. Vs Eurgh?

To deny there's a clear reason is obliviousness.

His slogan is "Real Nigga Time", son. It's a mostly black league and the THIRD WHITE GUY EVER had JUST appeared on there. You're honestly telling me this isn't a decidedly "street" league? You ever seen Trick Trick at a King of the Dot event? Why do you think that league gets all the views? Why has Big T. Vs Clips got 50k views more than D.N.A. Vs Eurgh?

To deny there's a clear reason is obliviousness.

Well, it's a different crowd altogether that might favor different things. But if they're so easily impressed, then why do so many people get booed onstage? It certainly isn't because the rapper wasn't "seeming street" enough. Just look at Hollow, some of his lines that received the most reaction on URL aren't even "street" bars. And even in his street bars, it's what else he said ("Bang! Bang! Bang! Craig's pops," "I'll put blood on the wall and the cabinets, homie/ It'll look like three bad ass kids was eating ravioli," etc.). Similarly, Hollow has obscure references too... just look at the beginning of his second round against Goodz ("I'm coming with fire off the top -- a Mike Jacks' Pepsi commercial" referring to when Michael Jackson's hair was set on fire when filming a commercial decades ago, or "They caught him on the rebound and slammed his ass without looking, like Dee Brown" referring to when Dee Brown won the Slam Dunk contest in the early '90s), the crowd liked those. Maybe they weren't super-complicated, but they were still obscure things that weren't current pop references, but the crowd got them. But they were obscure references that the Smack/URL crowd would probably remember.

They get booed for choking.

Look at the reactions to K-Shine's first round. "Like Hollister, all they find is Surf clothes." Really? Clips' Sun/Earth line Vs Verb? Really? They react to such simple wordplay because they get it. Why do you think there are sports refences and references to TV shows that predominantly known throughout the black community?

For the record, that game controller shit was said back in 2011, in Don't Flop...by Deffinition and in a much better way. Clips didn't bite it, but...meh.

[MultiVerse]

Well somebody's mad, I just matter to respect the other guys opinion and continuity on his posts more. Cause' I think I'm also entitled to my opinion.
I deny to have any part in this apparent flame war ( i doubt any co-signing with my name on it will have any weight on it) but goddamn, where did ya'll find this admin?

[DeeezNuuuts83]

Do you HONESTLY believe, in your heart of all hearts, that U.R.L. does NOT come off as a partisan league which requires a clear style and has a clear demographic? You say it's the MCs fault, I say it's both.

Do they come off that way? From most perspectives, yes. But that's not their fault, unless you want Smack to apply Affirmative Action to his lineups and audiences and intentionally put however many non-black rappers in his events and however many non-black fans in the crowd to not "come off" a certain way.

Then don't directly select and quote my posts. I didn't say half the shit you countered.

Why, did I hurt your feelings? Or when I talked about my girlfriend, did you think I was referring to you? Get real. If you know it's not about you and if I didn't say that YOU said it, then don't sweat it.

His slogan is "Real Nigga Time", son.

So is there a problem if someone who is black says "Real Nigga Time," or does it make them biased toward black people? If so, you'd better throw out your N.W.A CDs. Stop trying to make it a racial issue.

It's a mostly black league and the THIRD WHITE GUY EVER had JUST appeared on there.

Actually, it's been more than three. But how many have to appear on URL before you think it's "fair"? Most rappers in the United States, whether in the industry or in battle rap, are BLACK. Did you see Eminem battling a ton of white guys when he was going through the battle circuit before he blew up? No, because they (along with other races) were the minority then and are still the minority today. But Smack's fault or not, a lot of the non-black battle rappers just didn't go to Smack/URL for whatever reason and went elsewhere. But with Grind Time having fallen apart, you'll soon see a lot of their stronger acts, whether black or white or something else, test out their skills on URL, if they really want to keep battling. But don't get me wrong -- some guys just won't do it (or would not get the kinds of reactions they got on Grind Time). But again, it's not a black thing, like you seem to want it to be, because to you, apparently URL is racist. Yes, someone like Okwerdz would fail miserably at URL, but it's because he's slipped a bit and doesn't quite have the bars that URL likes or even the humor that they'd still enjoy... but it's not because he's white. But there are still black rappers from Grind Time who wouldn't do well either. Tiger Ty is black, but do you think that he'd do well? Nope. Even QP (from Grind Time, not the one from Detroit) who actually does have some pretty good bars from time to time would struggle. I'm sure you saw him crumble against Swave Sevah on Follow The Leader... a GRIND TIME EAST COAST event. But again, they put Jin on a long time ago, and Dizaster will do a URL battle anytime soon.

You're honestly telling me this isn't a decidedly "street" league?

Decidedly? No. But it's not going to go from being one thing to a perfectly diverse league overnight. Transitions have to be done properly and in a way that welcomes change but doesn't alienate the crowd that supported you from the beginning. The same thing is the case with hip-hop legends and their careers. Snoop started out as a West Coast gangsta rapper, and he stayed true to that for a while. But if he had jumped right into doing songs like that "California Girls" song he did with Katy Perry after he dropped Doggystyle, that would've ended his career. Same thing with Eminem, who still kept his songs heavy with lyricism, even as he was getting creative with his subject matter, but he'd have been labeled a sellout if he had jumped right into doing songs like what he did with Pink or Rihanna after he first got popular.

You ever seen Trick Trick at a King of the Dot event?

No. Ask yourself -- why would he go? He went to URL's battle because it was in his hometown, while including fellow Detroit rappers who he likely supports. Does he live in Canada (or anywhere else where they have hosted a battle)? No. Is he close to any of the rappers who have battled on King of the Dot? No. And you might want to do your homework and look into the facts... you cannot get into Canada with certain criminal convictions, so depending on what is on Trick Trick's rap sheet, he might not be allowed in. That's why Madness's first planned King of the Dot battle had been cancelled at first, since he had a DUI/DWI conviction and was denied entry.

Why do you think that league gets all the views? Why has Big T. Vs Clips got 50k views more than D.N.A. Vs Eurgh?

Obviously it's because more people want to watch those battles and were likely well aware of them as well. But comparing those battles doesn't strengthen the argument. Smack/URL has been around a lot longer, and obviously a lot more people are aware of that league. The URL website is updated with blogs daily, many of which promote upcoming and/or soon-to-be-released battles. King of the Dot hasn't been around for nearly as long (even though some of the people behind it have been involved for a while, like Bishop), and their website's front page doesn't have news updates nearly as frequently or as obvious as the URL site. And the difference is that Big T vs. Charlie Clips was the headlining battle of that event, while DNA vs. Eurgh was an undercard battle. But on the flipside, Dizaster vs. Canibus, part of the same event, has a ton of views that already rivals a lot of URL battles. Same thing with Dizaster vs. DNA, also a King of the Dot battle. So it's not only "that league" getting "all the views." The right battles will get views, and it's not always dependent on the league. Iron Solomon's battle on Grind Time has well over a million, and Arsonal's Grind Time battles have all been pretty successful as well. Dumbfoundead vs. Tantrum -- two Asian guys -- on Grind Time has a ton of views too... no Smack/URL needed.

I hate these U.R.L. guys going around claiming shit. Arsonal still claims he's undefeated. I've never seen him win either.

I agree that Arsonal is NOT undefeated (but he hasn't claimed that in a while, especially with some clear losses in a couple of recent battles), but to say that you haven't seen him win is interesting. I'll say it now -- I hate Arsonal. And while the circumstances were shady, the fact remains that he clearly beat Illmaculate, who came with better personals but fell victim to Arsonal's bullying and crumbled in the end. Most people say he beat Hollow ("You lost to Arsonal -- clearly -- no debating" - Goodz vs. Hollow on URL), plus while debatable depending on your taste, a lot of people feel that he beat Conceited ("You even said that you beat Conceited -- alright, yeah, you did" - Dizaster vs. Arsonal on Grind Time). And against T-Rex, also debatable, I gave it to him 2-1. T-Rex's first round was the absolute best of the entire six rounds between the two of them, but I think Arsonal's second and third finished stronger than Rex's, especially once the stage was cleared and he was without the Dot Mob cheering section.

Exactly. That is exactly it. So, his energy wasn't up. That wouldn't have changed by booing him. Worst crowds in ANY league. His bars would've been better heard and better understood had they given him a shot. I don't think they did. They're not respectful enough to the MCs. You paid money, let them do what you came to see.

But it's not necessarily them not letting them do what they paid for, it's about them not having delivered... and that's when the crowd starts to become difficult. It's the same in something like boxing. If there are solid exchanges or people are getting put on their ass, then the crowd got what they paid to see. But if they're hardly throwing punches or it is uneventful, they're going to throw fits... like when they booed during Pacquiao-Cotto when Cotto kept running away from him toward the end, or during Pacquiao-Mosley when they hugged at the beginning of the last round, or when Jorge Arge quit last month when he got punched in the ear and couldn't continue. It wasn't because their "best" wasn't good enough, it's because they weren't getting the best that they know the performers are capable of. The same thing applies to people who choke (like O-Red guzzling from his water bottle multiple times or complaining to Smack about the crowd during his third round against Swave Sevah) or just come with boring shit (like J. Fox when he got murked by Soul Khan). Math at his best (or even on a decent night) was way better lyrically and energy-wise than he was that night, and the crowd said fuck it.

They get booed for choking.

...and other things too, just like on older leagues like Jumpoff and Fight Klub. Remember when Serius Jones lost to Progressor Green? He got booed by the crowd, and he definitely didn't choke. His rhymes were weak in that last round, and the crowd wasn't feeling it. Jin has been booed by Fight Klub audiences too, even though he usually doesn't really choke... and sometimes he can recover (like against Shells, where he lyrics were mediocre but then he'd drop a really good line to win the crowd back), and sometimes he can't (like against Serius Jones).

Look at the reactions to K-Shine's first round. "Like Hollister, all they find is Surf clothes." Really? Clips' Sun/Earth line Vs Verb? Really? They react to such simple wordplay because they get it. Why do you think there are sports refences and references to TV shows that predominantly known throughout the black community?

But on the flip side, the crowds at other leagues react to stuff just because they're nice, and they overhype people too. But obviously you don't want to make references that the crowd won't get or understand. I bet if Hollow said that same Dee Brown line in Canada or in Europe, no one would've gotten it. And that's why you change your style up. DNA made references to Canada, Drake, etc. and everyone got it when he battled Dizaster. But just because he uses references recognized throughout the "black community" (even though it's racist to say that, since it's not as if the entire black community and only them know those references, since sports references will be known by sports fans of any color) doesn't mean that they're simple or lacking creativity. Hollow's Dee Brown reference was freestyled and won't necessarily have the multiple layers of complexity that some of his writtens may have had... and black or white, if you were into the NBA back then, you'd know what it was. DNA came with some stuff against X-Factor on URL that definitely wasn't simple... i.e. "These punches are known for knocking Detroit niggas out, I'm Marvin Hagler," "I'll split X (><) down the middle to show what's greater than (>) you is less than(<) me," etc. DNA was talking about math concepts, and the crowd got them. You seem to feel like URL crowds are mostly unintelligent with no understanding of real conceps while every other league's crowds are composed of people with masters degrees and genius-level IQs.

At the same time, you can mess up with it, and it's happened on those other leagues. Look at Fresco's second round against Kid Twist, where he was talking about all these literature concepts, and it didn't really get any reaction, and he admitted in the post-battle interview that he shouldn't have gone that route because the crowd -- a non-URL one with a very diverse racial composition -- didn't get it. Dizaster even said a couple things during some of his battles on KOTD (I think the one against HFK was one of them) that the crowd didn't get, which surprised him (and I think he even talked about it in the post-battle interview). So other leagues have crowds that don't always understand stuff.

For the record, that game controller shit was said back in 2011, in Don't Flop...by Deffinition and in a much better way. Clips didn't bite it, but...meh.

I'm sure that controller references aren't an original concept by Clips, but his approach was really good, especially since his opponent's name was referenced with the reference to the X-button. But realistically, someone has said something similar to damn near anything being spit. In PH vs. Dirtbag Dan on GTEC (though it was released as a URL battle since Poison Pen switched to URL), PH had some line in his first round that ended with "Lois Lane/lowest lane," which DNA pretty much used against Rone on Grind Time (where PH was present as the host). In DNA vs. Tech 9, DNA had some metaphor about having "both hands on the 9 like a quarter to 10," even though Crooked I said it in some freestyle... I think it was over Jim Jones' "Ballin" track. In Dizaster vs. HFK, HFK jacked the rhyme scheme ("I'm more hairy and I hit my wife better") that Tantrum used against Dumbfoundead ("My dick's bigger and I drive better"). So similar concepts are used, borrowed, bitten, etc. by all sorts of rappers on all sorts of leagues.